Author!
Sergey Klimov – Permanent author of the magazine "Gambling". He has been engaged in games as a business for 15 years, describes the evolution of his game addictions as Loom, Doom, Bloom.
Last year, Sergei and his partners united their independent studio Snowball with the giant of the Russian publishing market, company "1C-SoftKlab". Since then, Sergei has been working in the new company as the director for the development of a new business and dreams of developing this new business so to move, finally, to the village on the seashore.
In free from turning by millions and signing megachis, Sergey will produces the continuation of one extremely good step -by -step strategy, whose name begins with the letter “E” and ends with the number “2”. Most of all, he wants this game to win the prize Independent Games Festival 2012.
Ten years ago, they spoke about him with a stink: “This is the guy who made Diablo!»Five years ago – with disappointment:" This is the developer Hellgate ". Today they almost do not say, but they just shake their hands at exhibitions: “Oh, Max, thanks for Torchlight”. Max Schafer, an indie movement icon, a person who sold a million copies of the game in all his beloved, but almost forgotten genre, in the second interview tells Sergey Klimov when he releases Torchlight online, why always have a working version at hand and why Blizzard is not for anything Diablo 3 will succeed
[Sergey:] Max, in the last interview you said several times that Runic Games can make good games exactly because you are an independent studio. This very issue of independence has long been interested in me, since I feel in my own skin how the cultures of small companies and corporations differ: when a hundred people work, this is another story completely.
So. For an ordinary person, just taking and taking his own company is a serious step, and, as a rule, there should be some external causes for him. For example, Amanita appeared after Yakub Dvorski studied at the Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague, where he met future colleagues and learned how to work as a “creative team” (more about Yakuba – in Igromania No. Ch. /Xxx).
Sven Vink made “Larian”, focusing on his father-that 20-30 companies already, he is such an entrepreneur, a Gentleman (Read the story of Sven in Gamemany No. XXX). Taleworlds studio Armagan Javuza is based on university rules – Armagan has remained a professor, his development proceeds as training (interviews with Armagan – in Gamery No. XXX).
So, the question: where did you and Eric have a desire to make your own studio? Where did you learn this?
[Max:] Both mom and dad had their own companies, parents have been engaged in business all their lives. I think that the best lesson that I have learned from this is an understanding that you can create your own world, your own reality. There are no walls, there are no restrictions – at least here in America. If you are able to come up with something new-you are able to do it. With this understanding, we began to develop games.
[Sergey:] This is a purely American line?
[Max:] Not really. You yourself brought as an example of a studio from Turkey, from the Czech Republic. In Argentina there is one such.
You know, I have relatives in Michigan, in the American outback. Recently, in one family evening, a cousin comes up to me and says: “Dude, you are true Diablo I invented?"I say:" Yes, what?"And he in response:" Bli-i-in! Cruo-u-uto! I can't believe … Diablo! And so that my uncle created it!»And why amazing? Everything that we see around is someone specific, because it was true? Someone invented " Steam ", Someone invented" Tetris ", Someone invented and made my scooter, for that matter.
[Sergey:] Well. Someone invented the "gambling" in which this interview is printed. And I even know that the one who writes it, and the one who will edit it is never academicians.
[Max:] Well, for sure. As my brother says: “All the real people came up with these, not the dwarves from the Swiss mountains”. The second point that we understood thanks to parents is that the failure does not make you a loser.
The result of one project does not characterize you as a person. Every time you get involved in a new story, you understand the risk: there is always a chance that the case will fail. This is fine. You don’t need to score yourself ahead of time with your own fears, the most terrible loss is when you say in advance “I will not succeed, I can’t do it” and you don’t even start to do anything. How many people talked about digital distribution? How many services have already opened?
[Sergey:] And still, Gabe and his team with Steam won ..
[Max:] … because he began when no one else dared. My friends sometimes joke that I have my own, a special way of parking at the restaurant. While everyone is going to look for places for a quarter or two, I'm going straight to the door and looking for free places there. You know why? Because no one believes that they can be there – and I believe, and very often I find them there, because no one else even gets there. It's like in exams: half of the success is already just coming on time.
[Sergey:] And the stability does not bother you, or rather – its absence within the framework of an independent studio? If you worked at Electronic Arts, you would receive twenty thousand dollars a month, or even all thirty. And I wouldn't know the problems.
[Max:] Stability is good. I bought a new car (shows for parking, there is a small Ford – in Russia, even deputy assistant adviser to the second minister will not drive in Russia). But I definitely can’t work from nine in the morning until six in the evening, such a schedule will just kill me. And in terms of project implementation in large companies – big problems. The fact, including in philosophy. I am no longer twenty -five, for me the question “How I want to die, what I want to leave behind” is worth. What is the history of my life is that I was afraid to make my own game and for ten years licked someone's publishing ass for salary? Or that I made such a project for which all the e -sports schools of South Korea are ready to surrender to me? (laughs)
[Sergey:] Listen, but you sold the Blizzard studio at one time-that is, you were no longer Indie?
[Max:] Even when we united with Blizzard, – but we sold the studio not to her, but to its shareholders, companies Davidson & Associates, which was engaged in educational programs – so, even then we had our own office and no one told us what and how to do.
There was a lot of money, there was enough for Blizzard North , And on Blizzard South. I can say the same thing about Runic now: part of the studio belongs to the Chinese company ( Perfect World ), but this is a strategic investor, he never told me what and how to do. Behind me, Eric and Trevis – all places in the Council of Directors.
Its own reality
[Sergey:] Say, and then where is the publisher's place in this process? An independent studio like yours is generally needed by a publisher?
[Max:] Need, of course. For us, publishers are Steam and our European partners (although some of them behave completely badly, and we will soon change them).
The publisher is needed. You have to be a realist. Let's say you are a developer, you are developing coolly, you are a big design specialist. But you are unlikely to also transfer a specialist in Chinese, and is also capable of quickly and the first time to get the right age rating in Germany!
[Sergey:] Who is your promotion Torchlight?
[Max:] We ourselves. The advance of your game must be engaged in any way, no matter how cool you are. The game may be the best in the world, but no one will buy it if they will not write about it if they do not discuss it.
[Sergey:] I was bribed at one time that almost all independent developers behave very correctly with the press. You generally abandon any interview? For example, if the Russian fan site Torchlight will send you questions, you will answer? There are ten thousand readers there, and the "gambling" – half a million!
[Max:] I do not refuse any journalist. I have a fundamental position – we must answer every question that is sent to you, even if the article has only one reader. Because in our industry there are no other ways to convey information about the game to the audience.
For ourselves, we brought out three reasons why Runic is engaged in PR, works with the press. Firstly, we are not very good with the strategy of promotion. Maybe I would like to say differently, but let's come on: I don’t understand what is better now-to spend $ 25,000 on advertising in a magazine, on a social network, at an exhibition or at a conference. And with PR, unlike marketing, such questions do not arise. You do not have to choose – you just tell everyone about your game, and all. The only problem – sometimes there is not enough time, I answer with a delay.
[Sergey:] I have already noticed.
[Max:] Come on (smiles). Secondly, when we are engaged in PR and show people our game, we ourselves understand it better. You might think that we play so much in our projects that we know everything about them – however, no! Each time, at every exhibition I will have a surprise when I see how they play on my game on the stand.
We are now introducing new classes in Torchlight. We can assume which one will be the most popular – but I am sure that the exhibition will have a completely different picture. Well, by the way, press scenarios and demonstration of the game at exhibitions is a good reason to keep a version without bugs at hand all the time. This is disciplined. You cannot say: “Then we will fix everything, in a month,” because someone comes to the game every week.
[Sergey:] I just remember this since the time when we ourselves developed. Whatever E3 – two nights without sleep.
[Max:] And there is also GDC , GC , PAX Prime , Pax East , Comic-Con… you see, yes? It's easier to keep a stable version on hand. And finally, we just like to talk about our game. This is the third reason why we are doing PR ourselves. I think that any real developer loves attention – when they are interested in his project when they write about him … This is half the motivation, this explains why we generally make games.
[Sergey:] Okay, one of the publishing tasks is promotion, although you say PR, limiting yourself to the press – you took on yourself. What about money? Traditionally, after all, it is the publisher who provides financing. I have repeatedly heard that experienced developers still prefer to develop projects for other people's money.
[Max:] I also heard, but I think that how many people are so many opinions. If we had enough money at the beginning of the Torchlight development to make our own on our own, then we would invest in. Because with your money he breathes freer. Now, when we work with investors' money, we worry much more than if we were developed at our own expense.
[Sergey:] Why – because investors are nervous?
[Max:] No, investors are just calm. Just a gaming industry, the business itself is a rather risky enterprise, if you take not a specific project, but an industry as a whole. And if God forbid what failure, I am ready to lose my own, and strangers would be unpleasant.
[Sergey:] Or maybe torchlight 2 fail?
[Max:] No, I don't think. Although all the developers say so.(laughs) Now it’s much easier for us. When we started the first part, everything was new there – studio, series, gameplay. And now we are already improving a successful solution, we have a bad platform for the start.
[Sergey:] And what happens in the case of failure – drama, scandal, years of hard labor?
[Max:] What are you! If you work with professional investors – and these are those who helped us to launch Torchlight production – then this is far from the last money for them. And they will not starve if the project fails. There will be no tragedy for anyone. Of the ten projects, seven incurred losses. So far, ours is in a winning three. Maybe once it will be and vice versa, but this is normal. For us, the most important now is that the interests of investors coincide with our. They also want to make a good game, develop a studio, and not just "make a little cache".
The money is not in the first place
[Sergey:] To the question about “earn”: how do you feel about piracy? Whether it worries you or not, if the money is not in the first place?
[Max:] You know, piracy – it is just there, this is a given. This is part of life, part of the industry. Like hurricanes in Kansas, for example. Do not like hurricanes – move to the man. And the situation with piracy is ambiguous. Someone downloaded the game from torrents, played, left a positive review, and another player, after reading it, already bought the game. So it happens too.
Often, especially during sales, reviews come with the words: “Dude, I pumped your game, went through it all, rested – catch my five bucks”. You won’t do much for five bucks, but maybe it's all that he can afford? Who knows. Piracy is such a soup … Neither I nor you will be able to change the world. The one who cannot buy, the one who can but does not want to shakes.
[Sergey:] is about to! I think everyone will agree that games in Peru, for example, should be sold at such a low price that legal copies are available. Or in Russia – at local, Russian prices. But what if prices are already adapted, but people still pump? This situation is hurting you?
[Max:] Wounds, what is it there. For small Runic and for a giant corporation, piracy are different things. Because we have our own studio, our own business – real people with real problems.
I take the artist to work, and I promise him that he will work on successful games. He makes a cool game with excellent reviews. But if at the same time, because of the money downloaded for free, we will not collect money to the budget, then we will have to close. Because of the problems in our last studio, Flagship Studios , I had to fire 120 people. Most were my friends, and it was very difficult. I don't want to go through a second time through this. Therefore, we and Torchlight were sold for twenty dollars, by the way, and not forty.
[Sergey:] Who is doing everything now with regard to such nonsense, as apensional deductions, taxes, rental of an office?
[Max:] I'm doing it and I hate it.(laughs) what to do? When you have your own studio, you should think not only about games, but also about business as a whole. We have to plan, consider the budget, work with the bank … This is not the most exciting part of the development of games, but without it in no way.
At the time of Blizzard North, we have everything that we did, turned into gold, there were huge budgets, and then we had the cost of development on the drum. In my memory, several almost ready -made projects that Blizzard closed on the shelf because there was no task to earn a little – there was a task to make a new hit, a new bomb.
[Sergey:] Many people recall Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans because they painted graphics in St. Petersburg. I still have screenshots on my laptop.
[Max:] Yes, Warcraft Adventures was generally in the state of the Master Candidate-and nothing was released, because it would be success … but not a breakthrough. That was such an approach. I don't know whether it is good or not, it's just such a way. When you buy a box with a Blizzard logo, you do not look at the price, because what is inside is one hundred percent cool.
At the same time Diablo 3 The third time the audience is starting for the third time – there is nowhere to go higher, and that Blizzard would now let it out, everyone will swear. Part of the team has been working on the game for ten years. I really respect the fact that Blizzard is not made by quality and fundamentally makes the game as much time as necessary, but I myself am very glad that I do not work on it. I could not – I would be tired and depressed.
Too many managers
[Sergey:] Max, you somehow said that the idea in the game is 1% success. It is also awarded to business, too, or only for design?
[Max:] Both to design and to business. Between the idea that came to you to make a studio and its first finished game-years, and in order for the game to come out, you need to solve a cloud of problems. Especially in the game industry.
Films, books, cars – prevailing areas. And games are still looking for business models. New technologies appear all the time, new genres, new segments arise, the expectations of players, studios, publishers change … If the business were simple, then we would not have a situation when good games without a normal publisher are unnoticed, and part of the absolute nonsense shows serious Commercial successes.
[Sergey:] I just read a press release from one office yesterday, international, which reported on sales of 2,600,000 copies of my last game. Which has Metacritic – 66%. In my opinion, this is a victory of promotion over quality is the good old days when the figure known to us with you said: “Put a piece of shit in a box and I will sell it”. Because of such figures, in fact, we received a crisis of trust from buyers, from players.
[Max:] It seems to me that marketing, and indeed, this whole publishing part becomes evil when decisions on development begins to make people without the experience of such a development. All these vice presidents, executive producers on the part of publishers-they do not understand what the game is, they do not participate in the process of discussion, in the process of rethinking the gameplay and, being outside the team, they cannot offer normal decisions by definition.
They have knowledge – theoretical. If you recall the analogy about the clinic that you and I conducted in a last conversation, then we can say that all these people read the textbook, but were not in the operating room. And imagine that such a comrade gives you instructions on the phone “Let's cut!"Or" it's time to sew up ". And you see that it is not necessary to cut, and it is not time to sew up, and in general something else must be undertaken.
There are too many managers in our industry in large companies. Even in the framework of our studio, where thirty people in total, as soon as I took on a business, I stopped punching my own decisions on development. I only advise, but I do not impose. Because I do not want to be the very goat that does not understand the course of the team’s thoughts, but has an opinion on the issue.
[Sergey:] You met good publishers?
[Max:] Yes, I met. It's about people, not companies. In the same Electronic Arts There are rare freaks, and there are normal people with whom I would be glad to work. You just need to find a group of people with whom you have a common point of view, and try only to interact with them.
I would not say that all big companies are bad. No. Three quarters – freaks, and the rest are our guys. Here we still need to add that there are the same serious problems from the developers. It happens that the team cannot finish the project, adding something all the time, displacing something-so that the pie comes out sweet, sour, and for vegetarians, and for meat-eaters, and soft, and crisp … In attempts to achieve the impossible, you can achieve the impossible burn so many millions, oh!
On the forums all developers are bad
[Sergey:] Listen, there are three understandings of what games design is. Or this is an art – and then it is necessary to look for born talents; either this is a craft – and then you need to take a hundred trainees, of which the ten most capable will remain in five years; either this is a profession – and then it is necessary to open a hundred universities, and in five years a thousand new teams will appear. What do you think, you can teach the development of games?
[Max:] I will honestly tell you: from what students are taught, 95% is Burda. Not only in games, but in general life. My brother and I learned to make games ourselves. We first said to the publishers: “There are no problems, we will do!" – and then sat down and thought how exactly we can do it.(laughs)
I have – an architect's diploma. And I have to tell you that in this area everything was very rushed. Who complains about the game industry – let him work as an architect. You need to work hard for 10-12 years before you are given the opportunity to come up with a design of some door handle, and all these 10-12 years you will draw steps for the rear entrance to some Best Buy (Russian analogue-“Pyaterochka”).
You can open from such work. However, I am pleased with what I was taught in terms of visualization, spatial thinking – it helped. But, by golly, this is 5-10% of all training. Therefore, I, of course, are glad that all these institutions have now arose, where at least 20-30% of the time is not wasted, where they are trying to teach students really.
[Sergey:] You have already taken one of these students to work?
[Max:] I – no, but I heard good reviews. I would say that all technical skills are good. I believe that you can teach to work with graphics, with lighting. It's very cool that not from https://rhino-bet-casino.co.uk/ scratch a person comes to industry. But as for learning design … I'm not sure that you can teach such things.
[Sergey:] What do you think about forums, and indeed – about communication with your audience?
[Max:] Personally, I spend a lot of time on forums, a lot. But for a pure coin, I would not advise anyone to accept the opinion of the players, because there are too many incorrect complaints, a lot of things not at the address.
For example, if you go to the Blizzard forums, then you will see a wild amount of negativity, hatred in relation to the developers, and if you make an impression of the company on reviews on the forums, you will be great deceived. Suppose an investor Joe comes in reading about Starcraft – And he thinks: “You are mine, this is probably the worst developer in the industry – so many complaints!"(Laughs) But this is not due to the quality of the game, this is due to the fact that the players are too immersed in the project. As with television series – the more episodes, the more spectators the best director know what character what needs to be done.
[Sergey:] What about the proposals from the players?
[Max:] If you listen to Vox Populi, the voice of the people, then in our game the players most of all lack the button “Kill all the monsters at the level!" – so that nothing then interferes with the assembly.(laughs) although there are also practical advice.
For me, the main task is to be in touch, to be ready to listen to players. And, filtering the insignificant, to solve the real problems that prevent them from enjoying our game. I am like a doctor: I need a pulse, breathing – and so that the patient is healthy and happy. If at the same time he will be the whole trick about fishing and his second wife, I am ready to listen, but I will not take it too close to my heart.
There are many ways to make a good game
[Sergey:] You are often asked to make a online game based on torchlight – what do you say?
[Max:] Sooner or later, we will do it, no question. But so far we are not ready yet. Maybe after Torchlight 3.
[Sergey:] And what kind of online game will be?
[Max:] Today I see it like a mixture Ultima Online And Minecraft. My approach is different from the approach of most developers of online games. They want to earn more and quickly, but I do not believe in the subscription, in the sale of the skin … Look at Minecraft-there are so many opportunities to do something special, something new.
Compared to the prospect of inventing something of your own exploitation of the old monetary topic is completely uninteresting. I miss Ultima Online, by the feeling of waging that was there; If there was anarchy, then it was a real anarchy, and not a semblance of some.
But, of course, there are many ways to make a wonderful game. It all depends on the team, and all teams are different. Well, remember that we talked about Valve last time?..
I am far from counting everyone around idiots. Here is the guy who made Minecraft, he can consider us all idiots, and he will be right.(laughs)
[Sergey:] Max, what do you think that the best motivator is the pressure of circumstances? Here we are sitting now in San Francisco, in the port, on the bench under the sun. Maybe we want to invent the next big hit – but we will not be bad if we do not invent. And some guy who bought a computer in Ufa for the last money-he will invent because he needs. What can you say?
[Max:] Everything is not so simple, my friend. Otherwise, you and I would play all the projects from Ufa, right?
On the one hand, you're right. Pressure, fear – these are excellent motivators. It is much more difficult to decide on something new, experimental, if you have 10-20 million in the bank and nothing makes you sit at work on Friday evening. I don’t have these millions, and now, for example, I sometimes come to the studio on Saturdays to complete some things, but I read the mail at all around the clock, and not that I like it … it just needs to be necessary. The team counts on me. And if I were rich, I would go to the mountains on Saturday morning with dogs.
On the other hand, if you are too constrained by searching for financing, if you live on a minimum budget, then you have much fewer opportunities, having come up with something cool, then realize such an idea. Because your head will be chopped from problems. Every day you think about money, about the team, about salaries, and this fear of failure, the fear of the fact that there is not enough budget-it paralyzes, makes you choose the safest options, even if you see something that should work better.
And you will say to yourself: “Minecraft? Guys, if we try and fall off, this is the end to the team. Let's get it better than socialists ". Look at all these studios that have been working on the game for five or six years and who cut funding-they no longer have freedom, they have only fatigue and a desire to somehow get rid of this long-term construction. And what we get as a result? The next suck.
[Sergey:] What to do?
[Max:] Truth somewhere in the middle-in the balance between positive and negative motivation. Between responsibility and free time. For example, my negative motivation is this: if I screw up and give out the second Torchlight with ratings below the first, I will be ashamed to partners, before my colleagues in the industry. And this is enough for me in terms of stress.
And positive is that I am a co -owner of the studio and the financial success of the project will become a financial success for me. Both that and another pushes me to make the game the best as possible. I don't really understand how this is possible for a salary. I give the players the soul, because I want them to love me. And what is love for salary?
[Sergey:] The last question. Imagine that you and I meet in a year and I ask you if you have achieved success with Torchlight 2. What do you say? What is success for you in relation to this project?
[Max:] Oh, it's very simple. We have already discussed this with the guys. So so.
Once – we sold a million copies.
Two – players love our game.
Three – both players and industry love our studio, because we make cool games that everyone likes.
Well, of course, we still have the same team, no one left, no one has burned out, everyone is happy to work with me, and we are already dull in the next project. This will be success.
And – you can readers a few words?
Guys, if you play our game and you will like it – please buy it! At least for sale. We will be very, very pleasant for us!